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Adding Permanent Subtitles (with pics)
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mtlandisOffline
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Post: #1 (ID: 7083)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:47 pm     Karma this post: (+9 -0)   Post subject: Important Adding Permanent Subtitles (with pics) Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

Since I spend so much time on this, I decided to do a tutorial. For those of you who need hard subbed dramas, here is a step-by-step guide to turn any video and subtitle file into a hard subbed video file.
**Note - there are lots of different ways to do this - this way worked the most consistently for me**

Software Needed:

VirtualDubMod
VirtualDub Subtitle Filter - download the first filter - Download subtitler-2_4.zip from virtualdub.org (Make sure to put this in VirtualDub's Plug in folder. See 1st pic)
DiVX5 Codec (Uncheck the Player button during installation)
Subtitle Workshop


DO THIS FIRST - after you have downloaded all the software
Pic courtesy of DiVXLand.org


 




Start by converting the subtitles into the .ssa format. (You have to do this even if they are already in that format).
Open Subtitle Workshop
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that the subs are converted it time to hard encode them.
This part includes resizing the video because most TVs over scan the picture and cut off the subs. You can skip this step if you are watching on your computer.

Open VirtualDubMod
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(NOTE: If you have a 16:9 video and have a 16:9 format TV, you can skip resizing. Scroll↓ 3 pics. to compression.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's all there is to it. For a file this size (700MB), VirtualDubMod takes about 1 hour to convert. When done, you wind up with an .avi file that is hard subbed and can be played using 99.9% of computer media players such as WMP, VLC Player, BS PLayer, etc... If you want to turn these files into DVDs or VCDs you need additional software to do so such as Nero, DVD2SVCD, TMPGENC DVD Author, etc....

I created a tutorial for using Nero Vision Express 3 to burn DVDs. You can find it HERE.

If you have any questions, post them here and I will try to answer them for you.

Have fun & Good Luck.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------» -----------------------------------------------------



LINKS to questions, "Asked and answered":

How to add " 'subtitler' averylee "...

Why do subs appeare twice during play back..

My video was 470 MB before subbing and after subbing it become 10 GB.

My output file was 1 hour 02 min long whereas the original file was 1 hour 45 min 39 secs. What went wrong?
Read next 3-4 posts for answer...HERE

Xvid -- DivX popup warnings....

Couldn't locate the "XviD" codec


Languages other that English problems...

This is a problem w/ many non-English languages
One User's solution for Japanese subs.


I just found out the best font, size, etc to set for subtitle.

This is a good starting point..

Subtitles are cut off at bottom when played on TV..

Why do subtitles appear as white box??

My pc isn't loading the images from this tutorial that well

How do I create a "Batch" job in VirtualDubMod...

After Dawn's new "Hard Subbing guide...

I have a 16:9 format TV...I get a "squeezed" image - all the characters look stretched vertically











Edit by Theresa: Pic added to illustrate moving subtitle plug in
Edit by Ducky: Added links - (Working on it...)
Edit by Ducky: Still working on it...


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Last edited by mtlandis on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:01 pm; edited 8 times in total
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Post: #2 (ID: 8459)   PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:10 pm     Karma this post: (+2 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
hey! i decided to pop by and take up your offer on your tutorial.. everything seemed to be as how u described it, however, when i reached the area of filters, i did not see 'subtitler' averylee to add... care to advise?


If you look at the very beginning you will see a list of software needed:
Quote:
Software Needed:

VirtualDubMod
VirtualDub Subtitle Filter (Make sure to put this in VirtualDub's Plug in folder)
DiVX5 Codec (Uncheck the Player button during installation)
Subtitle Workshop


You have to download the subtitle filter and move the file into VirtualDub's plug in folder

My tutorial is based on one I found on the DiVX site. The very beginning of that tutorial goes into move the plug in:

DiVX Tutorial


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Post: #3 (ID: 8461)   PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:20 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

Karma to you queen for being soooo funny !! Bouncing Grin

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Post: #4 (ID: 8465)   PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:53 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
D-U-H ok sowwwiee.. i will try that now.. hopefully if i encounter any other problems u are still online..oh btw, when i did the subtitler workshop thingy... how come when during the playback, the subs appeared like twice.. ie: double of the same thing just that one is bigger than the other..


I don't bother with the playback myself, however, the reason they show up twice is because the subtitler workshop is also opening either VobSub or ffdshow to read the subs. Once you hard sub it - the subs will only appear once. VirtualDubMod does not open VobSub or ffdshow.

And yes, I will be around for anymore questions.


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Post: #5 (ID: 8466)   PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:54 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

miriam wrote:
Karma to you queen for being soooo funny !! Bouncing Grin


So, Miriam - why don't you try hard subbing a drama. LOL the tutorial is very easy to follow. I bet you could do it with a little patience.


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Post: #6 (ID: 8483)   PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:05 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

b9l3 a2t7

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Post: #7 (ID: 8518)   PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:18 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
hey! i finally manage to merge the subtitles!! yaaaay Praise you! thanx to your tutorial! I was wondering:

1. is it correct for me to say that virtualdubmod acts as a means for me to add the subs? it doesn't change the size/format right?


For your purposes, you could say that. VirtualDub does so much more - I just don't use the other features. Also, If you wat to adjust fonts (size, color, font type) you should do that in subtitle workshop.

angelblaze wrote:
2. if i wanna burn it on dvd, all i have to do is use virtualdubmod to add the subs, then use winavi to convert to dvd?


You could, I use Nero.

angelblaze wrote:
3. if i wanna burn it on vcd, i have to use virtualdubmod to add the subs, then use winavi to conver it to vcd format?


If you have Win AVI you can use that to add the subs. It works pretty well. I was having a problem with file size and I wasn't pleased with the output quality. It was never consistent.

angelblaze wrote:
4. How do i burn more than one show on the dvd?I think one dvd can whole up to 2-3 shows..per file is about 1.9gb after conversion?


This where Nero comes in handy. I can usually fit 4 or 5 episodes per DVD with Nero and there is no need to reconvert them. Nero does very well with avi files. I am using Nero Vision Express 3.

I start off with 700MB files and wind up with like 701MB files with VirtualDub. Nero doesn't make them any bigger.


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angelblaze

Post: #8 (ID: 8521)   PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:51 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Malaysia Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
2. if i wanna burn it on dvd, all i have to do is use virtualdubmod to add the subs, then use winavi to convert to dvd?


Quote:
You could, I use Nero.


If i wanted to use Nero, how would i go about doing it? After using Virtualdubmod, with the subs all done up and merged into the avi file, i tried burning it into a dvd using Nero's function of the DVD format..But it did not recognize the file saying that it has to be in a dvd format before burning it.. So how do i go about doing it..


angelblaze wrote:
3. if i wanna burn it on vcd, i have to use virtualdubmod to add the subs, then use winavi to conver it to vcd format?


Quote:
If you have Win AVI you can use that to add the subs. It works pretty well. I was having a problem with file size and I wasn't pleased with the output quality. It was never consistent.


Unfortunately for me, when i use WinAvi, the subs did not appear, despite the fact that i have read in forums, that all i had to do was just rename the files of both to have the same name, the result of it was not good.. there was no subs, although the picture quality was reasonably ok..

angelblaze wrote:
4. How do i burn more than one show on the dvd?I think one dvd can whole up to 2-3 shows..per file is about 1.9gb after conversion?


Quote:
This where Nero comes in handy. I can usually fit 4 or 5 episodes per DVD with Nero and there is no need to reconvert them. Nero does very well with avi files. I am using Nero Vision Express 3.

I start off with 700MB files and wind up with like 701MB files with VirtualDub. Nero doesn't make them any bigger.


I tried adding 3 avi files together, but Nero said that it did not recognize the files and that it has to be a dvd format to burn it into a dvd..Would the normal Nero be able to burn 4-5 episodes in one DVD? I am using Nero 6 Ultra Edition. Or do I need to use Nero Vision Express 3? If so where do i get it? WOW being able to fit 4-5 episodes in one DVD is BRILLIANT!! Praise you! thank you so much for replying me.. u have no idea how much u have helped me!![/quote]

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Post: #9 (ID: 8551)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:24 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

To burn DVDs using Nero you need Nero Vison Express 3. Try their website to download the most recent updates.

You are missing a step if you want to use Win AVI. Yes, both the avi & sub file need to be in the same folder AND named the same. However, you also need a subtitle reader like VobSub or ffdshow. You will need to configure these. Try googling for guides. On Win Avi I usually encode to MPEG1 and limit my file size to 700MB.


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angelblaze

Post: #10 (ID: 8558)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:50 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Malaysia Reply with quote Quick Quote

mtlandis wrote:
To burn DVDs using Nero you need Nero Vison Express 3. Try their website to download the most recent updates.

You are missing a step if you want to use Win AVI. Yes, both the avi & sub file need to be in the same folder AND named the same. However, you also need a subtitle reader like VobSub or ffdshow. You will need to configure these. Try googling for guides. On Win Avi I usually encode to MPEG1 and limit my file size to 700MB.


I actually have VobSub, some of the things in VobSub is Submux, Sub Resync am i right? if it is so, then i have VobSub, i also have the little green arrow at the bottom when i am playing a file that requires subtitle.. Does this mean i have VobSub?Could u teach me how to configure it if u have the time?I'd really appreciate it.. You have been so much of a help with ur initial tutorial..

When u encode to MPEG1, do u eventually burn into DVD/VCD format?

Thanx again for all your hard work and ur help in explaining, i truly appreciate it..

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Post: #11 (ID: 8568)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:19 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

If the greenarrow is showing up it means you have VobSub installed and it is iopening correctly to read the subs. When using WinAVI - open the preview window and make sure the subs are showing up on your video. If not, it is a VobSub problem. If they are, your TV may be overscanning and you need to adjust the size of the video. I don't have VobSub installed so I can't do screenshots for you.

VobSub was very unreliable for me - ffdshow was much more reliable. However, the method I have listed here is the most reliable for quality and for getting all the subs.

You don't need VobSub if you use the method I gave you here. You do, however, need Nero.

I did a quick tutorial for burning with Nero Ultra Edition 6 HERE


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angelblaze

Post: #12 (ID: 8672)   PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:38 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Malaysia Reply with quote Quick Quote

mtlandis wrote:
If the greenarrow is showing up it means you have VobSub installed and it is iopening correctly to read the subs. When using WinAVI - open the preview window and make sure the subs are showing up on your video. If not, it is a VobSub problem. If they are, your TV may be overscanning and you need to adjust the size of the video. I don't have VobSub installed so I can't do screenshots for you.

VobSub was very unreliable for me - ffdshow was much more reliable. However, the method I have listed here is the most reliable for quality and for getting all the subs.

You don't need VobSub if you use the method I gave you here. You do, however, need Nero.

I did a quick tutorial for burning with Nero Ultra Edition 6 HERE


OK i am now downloading the updates..i hope it isn't a trial version.. funny that i have ultra edition 6, but it doesn't have nero vision express...

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angelblaze

Post: #13 (ID: 8699)   PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:20 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Malaysia Reply with quote Quick Quote

when u said the,

Quote:
method I have listed here is the most reliable for quality and for getting all the subs.


u meant by virtualdubmod rite? i noticed the quality for it dropped a little, when i burned it into vcd format.. the quality isn't that good.. does this mean, if i were to burn in dvd a dvd/dvd format it would automatically be sharper? the fact that dvd have all those mpeg2 thingy going? *sorry for the laymen terms.. i have no idea what i am doing, except do it by procedure using your tutorials* hahahahhaha...

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Post: #14 (ID: 8702)   PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:26 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
when u said the,

Quote:
method I have listed here is the most reliable for quality and for getting all the subs.


u meant by virtualdubmod rite? i noticed the quality for it dropped a little, when i burned it into vcd format.. the quality isn't that good.. does this mean, if i were to burn in dvd a dvd/dvd format it would automatically be sharper? the fact that dvd have all those mpeg2 thingy going? *sorry for the laymen terms.. i have no idea what i am doing, except do it by procedure using your tutorials* hahahahhaha...


Are you using WINAvi to burn it to VCD? WinAVI will encode it again. When I meant quality, I meant that once the subs have been added there is no quality loss. Nero will also re-encode it when burning to DVD but I seem to have little quality loss.

Remeber one thing - the better the quality, the larger the file. If you want to fit 4 to 6 episodes per DVD then the quality will not be as sharp as larger files where you can only fit 2 per DVD.


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angelblaze

Post: #15 (ID: 8728)   PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:38 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Malaysia Reply with quote Quick Quote

erm actually i am using nero to burn into vcd..

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Post: #16 (ID: 8736)   PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:05 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

angelblaze wrote:
erm actually i am using nero to burn into vcd..


You need Vision Express to burn to VCD as well. I can't vouch for any other method.

Try downloading ALL their update packs - there are like 5 or 6 of them. You can find them HERE.


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Oversoul

Post: #17 (ID: 9135)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:30 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

Quote:
VobSub was very unreliable for me - ffdshow was much more reliable. However, the method I have listed here is the most reliable for quality and for getting all the subs.


sir, i used winavi to convert avi to mpg format...the filter i used was VobSub...it turns out that some subs are not hardcoded therefore became a lot of missing subs in the episode...i used ffdshow and voila, all subs were hardcoded...only problem is...some subs that have placing commands like [/a5] and [/a6] were not recognized by ffdshow and therefore...were hardcoded as is and were not hardcoded in the position where it should be placed (example

00:00:05 - 00:00:08
[/a6] Otousan = father
Otousan, why are you doing this?



[/a6] Otousan = father needs to be placed on top of the video using vobsub and Otousan, why are you doing this? is supposed to be on the bottom of the video, but upon using ffdshow....it is hardcoded as is and placed at the bottom of the video and the subtitles
Otousan, why are you doing this? are not encoded anymore


do u have a tip for this? thanks

your method using virtualdubmod is good but it takes a very long time on my PC that's why i want to try other alternatives and using WinAVI was very very fast

cheers!

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Post: #18 (ID: 9145)   PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:02 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

I am sorry I can't help you ffdshow. I didn't use it for long and I don't know the ins and outs of it.

Have you thought about opening the sub in subtitle workshop and changing the command to something ffdshow will like?


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Oversoul

Post: #19 (ID: 9356)   PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:42 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

ok what commands are they? sorry ..don't know much about this stuff.. thanks

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Post: #20 (ID: 9366)   PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:14 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

Oversoul wrote:
ok what commands are they? sorry ..don't know much about this stuff.. thanks


Well, if it was me, I would load a subtitle that works Ok into Subtitle Workshop and see what it looks like. Next I would open the "problematic" sub and adjust it so it looks like the "OK" subs. I am GUESSING here but you should be able to remove the [a/6] without screwing up the subs. Once you are done make sure to "Save As" so you don't ruin your original copy.


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whitish

Post: #21 (ID: 9546)   PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:11 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

hello there.. a friend told me about this site, so i thought il drop by. the tutorial was very helpful and easy to follow..Thanks alot! actually just finish hardsubbing a video.. anyways just got a few question to ask. I was wondering how to maintain the finish video with the original one. because i hardsub a 350mb awhile ago, but it became 426mb.. but i dont really mind about that.. doesn't really make any difference..

Anyway my main concern is how to maintain the same quality with the original one? if im not mistaken when you converted your files, the quality did not degraded right? anyways thanks alot... btw the only instruction that i didnt follow is using divx codec 5. im using version 6. but i dont think that would affect the output.. thanks

and a follow up question. did you change the duration in the bitrate calculator, because when i open it. the duration is 1hour 45mins, but its just a 60min video. thanks again

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Post: #22 (ID: 9550)   PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:45 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

whitish wrote:
hello there.. a friend told me about this site, so i thought il drop by. the tutorial was very helpful and easy to follow..Thanks alot! actually just finish hardsubbing a video.. anyways just got a few question to ask. I was wondering how to maintain the finish video with the original one. because i hardsub a 350mb awhile ago, but it became 426mb.. but i dont really mind about that.. doesn't really make any difference..

Anyway my main concern is how to maintain the same quality with the original one? if im not mistaken when you converted your files, the quality did not degraded right? anyways thanks alot... btw the only instruction that i didnt follow is using divx codec 5. im using version 6. but i dont think that would affect the output.. thanks

and a follow up question. did you change the duration in the bitrate calculator, because when i open it. the duration is 1hour 45mins, but its just a 60min video. thanks again


If you resize the video it will change the output size. Also, you can set the output size to a certain number of MB when you configure DiVx.

Yes, if you look thru the tutorial you will see where I noted that you should input the total dureation of the video into the bit rate calculator.

I noticed no difference with quality when I used this method.


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whitish

Post: #23 (ID: 9554)   PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:59 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

ohh ic.. thansk i thought the duration was default Smile btw.. what if my video is in xvid format.. can i still use the divx codec or should i download a new codec? thanks alot.. sorry to trouble you

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Post: #24 (ID: 9583)   PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:02 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

whitish wrote:
ohh ic.. thansk i thought the duration was default Smile btw.. what if my video is in xvid format.. can i still use the divx codec or should i download a new codec? thanks alot.. sorry to trouble you


You should make sure the video plays on your computer. If it does, you are fine. If not, you will need to download the codec. You should compress it using DiVX regardless.


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shuwei

Post: #25 (ID: 10111)   PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:36 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

My video was 470 MB before subbing and after subbing it become 10 GB. That is way too extreme. The video is 46 mins and the bitrate calculator was filled out. Can you help me find what I did wrong? Oh, and I don't know what audio bitrate is so I left it like that. Thank you very much.

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Post: #26 (ID: 10113)   PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:51 pm     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

shuwei wrote:
My video was 470 MB before subbing and after subbing it become 10 GB. That is way too extreme. The video is 46 mins and the bitrate calculator was filled out. Can you help me find what I did wrong? Oh, and I don't know what audio bitrate is so I left it like that. Thank you very much.


Sounds like you didn't do the DiVX configuration right. Go back and do it again - make sure you don't leave anything out. If you don't add the DiVX compression filter correctly you wind up with a huge file like that.


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novicebum

Post: #27 (ID: 11262)   PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:58 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

hello to all! i'm newbie here, thanks for the tutorial but i have encountered a problem, that's why im sharing it out here maybe you can figure it out as well...i did all the tutorials and i possibly do it just like what it is instructed, but when i happen to burn it on a vcd format in nero i found out that i can't hear anything i mean there's no sounds at all...i don't know what's the problem?? but b4 i burned it on a cd i made a test in using the VLC player and there's no problem at all, but when i finished burning it to nero just like i said theres no audio anymore...hope you can me configure with this flaws...thanks!! hug

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Post: #28 (ID: 11268)   PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:28 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United Kingdom Reply with quote Quick Quote

I never knew you were a video editor Theresa! I've done a fair bit myself, have you ever tried out a piece of software called Vegas? It's awesome... I'll send you it if you like over AIM or something... it's a hell of a lot better and easier than virtual dub Wink quite a few professional film makers use it.

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Post: #29 (ID: 11277)   PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:58 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: United States Reply with quote Quick Quote

Tim wrote:
I never knew you were a video editor Theresa! I've done a fair bit myself, have you ever tried out a piece of software called Vegas? It's awesome... I'll send you it if you like over AIM or something... it's a hell of a lot better and easier than virtual dub Wink quite a few professional film makers use it.


LOL Tim - who do you think comes up with all the stuff for the VC (Video Club)? I don't do a whole lot of editing - mainly adding subs and burning to DVD. Sure I would love to try Vegas. Let me know how you want to send it to me.

novicebum wrote:
hello to all! i'm newbie here, thanks for the tutorial but i have encountered a problem, that's why im sharing it out here maybe you can figure it out as well...i did all the tutorials and i possibly do it just like what it is instructed, but when i happen to burn it on a vcd format in nero i found out that i can't hear anything i mean there's no sounds at all...i don't know what's the problem?? but b4 i burned it on a cd i made a test in using the VLC player and there's no problem at all, but when i finished burning it to nero just like i said theres no audio anymore...hope you can me configure with this flaws...thanks!!


Welcome aboard Novice!

Let me ask you, once you have converted the file - have you tried playing the converted file back? Does the converted file have sound? Normally, sound issues are missing codecs. Try playing back the converted file on your computer. If it has sound then the issue is with Nero. If it doesn't have sound you may be missing a codec. Try using G-Spot to determine whether you have the correct codecs installed.

Please let me know how it goes.


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novicebum

Post: #30 (ID: 11532)   PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:06 am     Karma this post: (+0 -0)   Post subject:   Posted from: Philippines Reply with quote Quick Quote

yup i did it but unfortunately it doesn't have sound also, but i disregarded it coz when i played it on VLC player it seems i haven't encountered any problem at all, unless if i will use the windows media player to play it, then it doesn't have sounds and i also saw below while the player reads the file this usually appear " error in codec thingy" i dunnu coz im not very proficient with this thing and that's why it really helped me a lot to follow some instructions here...i really appreciate your replies..thanks!!! Razz

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