The emperor or king in a historical drama is usually called "Pay-ha" by his subjects. However, the king in 'The Iron Empress' is called "Chaw-na". What's the difference?

Pay -ha means his stomach hurts (배 = 'stomach. belly). The 'ha' is just a contraction of 'ah-puh-dah' (아프다 ).

Chaw-na may mean "I'm cold". (찬 ).

I noticed in the beginning of Iron Empress the emperor was called Pay-Ha. When the young brother took over as King and joined hands with Tang? or China? ( I don't remember which, but now they answer to someone else) they started to call him Jo-nah or Chaw-na.

In most historicals I notice the king or emperor is called pay-ha. In YiSan and Immortal Yi Soon Shin, the King/Emperor was called Jo-nah/Chaw-na.

My Standard Engl.-Korean Dictionary, which frustrates me as much as it helps me (I don't think
they had KHDs in mind when they put it together ), is helpful with this. The Korean words for
"majesty" are chon-om, which I guess would become chon-a (sounds like shon-a) when you're
addressing the person, and p'ye-ha. Why one is used in a given drama and not the other is a good
question.

Was I ever glad to see that p'ye-ha in print. I'd been wondering about the romanized spelling of
that one for ages!

In Yi San a word used by the prince's mother when she addressed him was sae-sun or sae-san. In
King & I the king's grandmother calls him cho-sun or cho-san, which made me think the monarch
represented the nation so was addressed by the nation's name.

I think if I remember right Mr. Voiceover said joining hands with China as a subservient state lead to a name change for the king?

Remember when he went to go cry in the corner of palace and his servant started to call him one thing and he corrected him?

Min Joo wrote:

I think if I remember right Mr. Voiceover said joining hands with China as a subservient state lead to a name change for the king? Remember when he went to go cry in the corner of palace and his servant started to call him one thing and he corrected him?

Yes, my understanding is that “P’ye-ha” roughly translates to “Emperor,” and “Chon-a” to “King.” Recall that an Emperor typically rules over several semi-autonomous kingdoms, in which the Kings are allowed to generally go about their business in local affairs, but are forced to submit to the Emperor in international policy matters (which could include things like providing the Emperor with military assistance, whenever he demands it).

Recall how King Sejong had to tippy-toe around the Chinese when it came to things like astronomy or weapons development, as they were issues that the Chinese Emperor insisted he had the final say on.

I'm thinking (not 100% sure) that when Wang Guhn unified the "three Koreas" (Koryo, Shilla, and Bekjae) it was only natural that he establish himself as an Emperor. However, in "Iron Empress," we saw the Koryo Emperor submit to the Chinese Emperor, and when he did, he had little recourse but to reduce his title from “Emperor” to “King."

And it seems that the soon-to-be Iron Empress was REALLY p*ssed off when she saw her brother submitting to the Chinese!

Of course you're right---it was when Korea was a client state of China that they would've used the
term "Chon-a." Lower level of authority from the emperor days.

Thanks for pointing that out, Min Joo and mikey!

oooooh good discussion! i was wondering about this myself. mikey's explanation is very helpful.

In GQD, Deokman as Queen is called Payha. In the Iron Empress, the empress is called Mama.

Are both correct?

yea, I love it when they say Oma mama

Now, I must emphasize that I'm a mere babe in the woods when it comes to Korean, but I'll give it my best shot (and anyone more knowledgeable than I, please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong).

"Ma-ma" seems to be the term used to address important members of the royal family who are NOT the actual ruler. Thus, queens, princes, and princesses would usually be addressed by all the non-royals as "Ma-ma."

But, there are a few inconsistencies. It appears that Queen Seon-deok was addressed as “P'ye-ha” (or, however you'd wish to Romanize it) because she was a "Great Queen" - the actual ruler of Shilla. However, I'm not 100% sure as to why she was addressed as "P'ye-ha" rather than “Chon-a”. It might be that, even though she wasn't an emperor in the strict sense, she still wasn't subordinate to another, more powerful nation, either.

And, recall that Seon-deok's ambition was to unite the three Korean kingdoms of the time: a move that, had she succeeded, would have left her something more like an actual emperor.

It's been a while, and I don't recall exactly the details of when or why Cheon-chu was called "Ma-ma." I wonder if it was before she took the throne . . . or after, once she had been ousted from the throne?

Quote:

yea, I love it when they say Oma mama

I'm also not sure how to Romanize this correctly, but the term "Abu Ma-ma" (that's how it sounds to me, though I could be totally wrong) is usually how princes and princesses address their father, the king. Rather than calling their father "Abuji" (as any normal child would) they call their father "Abu Ma-ma."

Again, if I'm way off on this, anyone please feel free to correct me.

Isn't oma ma-ma when they address their mother? just makes me giggle when I hear that - so many ma's. thanks I wasn't sure want they were saying when they addressed their father.

Hi, mikey and everyone!

I think mikey's explanations provide correct and enough infomation to enable us to enjoy Korean historicals. But, if I were asked to add one thing to mikey's explanations, I would like to say that pey-ha was used to address kings as well as emperor in Korea. Pey-ha is supposed to be a term for emperors in China, but Koreans kings had been addressed as pey-ha before the Mongol invasion in the 13th century.
Since the status of emperor had been considered to be higher than that of king in East Asia, it is natural that the monarchs of neighbouring countries such as Korea, Japan, and Vietnam also wanted to proclaim themselves emperors. But it obviously meant a serious diplomatic/military conflict with China, so they behaved like an emperor domestically - that's why they were addressed as pey-ha - but behaved like a king diplomatically toward China. As for Japan, its king proclaimed himself emperor(tenno) in the 7th or 8th century, but it was not approved by Korea as well as China, and tennos were invisible to Korea and China until the 19th century. For example, Toyotomi Hedeyoshi was recognized as the king of Japan by Korea and China.
I've read something about Vietnam, but have forgotten it. You could search for it and find a similar story. Thanks for reading.

...or when they grab their stomack in agony, screaming, "Pay-ah, pay-ha!"

Jim wrote:

stomack

Egad!


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